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Lucid Dreams or OBE's (The Matryoshka Project) (Read 433 times)
matryoshka23
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Lucid Dreams or OBE's (The Matryoshka Project)
02/08/07 at 13:23:03
 
Here is the question that is currently pressing me.  What is the distinction between a "Lucid Dream" and an "Out-Of-Body" experience?  

The following are several "species" of consciousness alteration that I have thus far experienced since the onset of The Matryoshka Project:

1.)  A state in which I am unaware that I am dreaming (environment relatively stable)

2.)  A state in which I am unaware that I am dreaming (environment relatively unstable)

3.)  A state in which I am aware that I am dreaming(environment relatively stable)

4.)  A state in which I am aware that I am dreaming(environment relatively unstable)

5.)  A state with pre-exit vibrations at the onset of the experience, including a conscious seperation from the physical(?) and remaining in the familiar physical(?) environment with no reality fluctuations.

6.)  A state with pre-exit vibrations at the onset of the experience, including a conscious seperation from the physical(?) and remaining in the physical(?) environment with some subtle reality fluctuations.

7.)  A state with pre-exit vibrations at the onset of the experience, including a conscious seperation from the physical(?) and remaining in the physical(?) environment with prominant reality fluctuations.

8.)  A state with pre-exit vibrations at the onset of the experience, including a conscious seperation from the physical(?) and entering a completely unfamiliar environment.

9.)  Any of the above experiences (5-8) but with no pre-exit vibrations at the onset of the experience.

10.)  Any of the above (5-8) but with the pre-exit vibrations experienced not at the onset but after the altered state had already been established.

11.)  The "false awakening" in which the reality experienced by the awareness is so familiar and stable that the experiencer is entirely convinced that she has awakened...only to awaken "for real" into the same familiar stable environment moments later.

These are some of the experiences that I have had thus far.  Some of them are very distinct from one another and others merge so that it is difficult to tell the difference between one and the other.  

This is a clear example of the possibility that all perceptual experiences fall somewhere along a seemless spectrum.  States of awareness don't seem to be as black and white and concrete as "physical", "astral", "ethereal", "spritual" etc.  There seem to be points along the continuum where there are subtle and profound overlaps.

Please let me know what you think.

At this stage in my research and development surrounding the project, I am not yet clear as to the primary distinuishing qualities of the OBE and Lucid Dream states that make the two stand out clearly from one another.

Up to this point, I have been loosely defining the OBE state as one in which the pre-exit vibrations accompany the experience at either the onset of a particular shift in consciousness or at some point within the course of its duration.

What I have been defining loosely as Lucid Dreams is a similar if not identical experience but without any recollection of this pre-exit vibrational phenomenon.

To me, the two are nearly if not completely identical.  It is also possible that many of the experiences that I have had thus far which I consider to be of the "dream" variety, whether lucid or not, were in actuality the same out-of-body state but without any recollection of the pre-exit vibrations.  More research, experiments, and exploration will be required in order for me to make this distinction.  

Recently, I may have stumbled upon a method by which to induce either a vivid dreamstate, a lucid dream, or an OBE as a result of two experiences that happened over the course of the past two weeks.  

I'm starting to think that the key might be the position in which the body is laying when settling down for an experiment in altering the default state of consciousness, namely on ones back, head slightly tilted, and both arms on either side of the body.

On nearly every occasion that I've laid down in this position, I either experienced a series of extremely vivid dreams, a lucid dream, or the out-of-body state accompanied by the pre-exit vibrations.  This appears to be so even if I don't remain in this position throughout the duration of the night but only for a period of one hour or more.

After about one to one and a half hours, I usually begin to feel some uncomfortable tingling sensations in my toes, feet, and lower legs.  Sometimes the sensation will spread throughout my body.  Not often, but occasionally, the sensation will be followed by the pre-exit vibrational state which will also usually begin in patches and then work its way across the entirety of the body.

I've noticed that if I allow myself to undergo the sensation to the point where I become overwhelmed by its intense discomfort, that I can simply roll over and allow the sensation to completely wane and eventually fall into the sleep state.  Later, upon awakening, my mind will be filled with vivid memories of dream and OBE experiences that I immediately transfer into my Dream/OBE journal which I always keep close at hand.  

Perhaps the tension created during the period of withstanding the tingling sensation puts a certain amount and type of pressure on the brain which may form the chemistry responsible for these altered states of consciousness and the vivid and accurate recall thereof.

Further experiments will be run in order to disprove or verify the current hypothesis.

Michael
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« Last Edit: 02/13/07 at 14:56:53 by matryoshka23 »  
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John Magnus
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Re: Lucid Dreams or OBE's (The Matryoshka Project)
Reply #1 - 02/15/07 at 17:23:24
 
Hi Michael,
It seems everyone is confused about the LD/OBE distinction, me included. I looked up Wikipedia’s definition of LD and it just said something like knowing when you are dreaming. Now, to know what that means in relation to OBE, we have to understand what dreams are and where they come from. I don’t think I am qualified to say what dreams are, other than a creation of the subconscious.

It seems to me that the LD/OBE distinction depends on the perception of the projector. If he thinks he is dreaming, then he’s having an LD. If he thinks he is not dreaming, then he will label it OBE. In both LD and OBE, the subconscious alters the surroundings (reality fluctuations), so in any given experience, the projector could perceive it either way. A subjective perception like this is not a very good basis for a categorization system.

Therefore, I think it may be counterproductive to use an LD/OBE categorization. I think a better one would be where we rate the level of lucidity 0-5 during the experience, where 0 is total unconsciousness and 5 is total lucidity. Maybe as a secondary categorization, we could rate the extent or frequency of reality fluctuations, that is, the level of subconscious interference.


About the body position, I was just wondering whether the blood flow through the brain affects the state of mind. It certainly does so in a waking state, so why not also in sleep? Maybe pressure and tilting affect the blood flow? I am very curious to what you find out.
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matryoshka23
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Re: Lucid Dreams or OBE's (The Matryoshka Project)
Reply #2 - 02/15/07 at 17:36:19
 
Great response!  Thank you!  These ideas really do resonate with my own process of thinking these days as well as the contents thereof.  

It really makes no difference whether or not one refers to an experience as a "dream", a "lucid dream", or an "out-of-body experience".  What matters, at least to me, is the quality of the experience!  You have confirmed the suspician for me!

So what we ought to be focusing on is not whether it is this or that but rather to what degree of lucidity we are functioning and to what extent the environment has been altered from something recognizable.  

This is not only true of "sleeping life" but also of "waking life"!  There's no sense in placing arbitrary definitions on such things after having had the experience of "waking up" multiple times before "really waking up"!  

We are having an experience.  It will not be defined but rather it will be analyzed in terms of its qualities and the experiencer's presence of mind.

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Re: Lucid Dreams or OBE's (The Matryoshka Project)
Reply #3 - 02/15/07 at 17:51:51
 
That’s a great way to put it! I think our goal is a high level of lucidity, whether awake or sleeping. I have come to a point where I no longer care about the surroundings, whatever delicatessen they dish up. What thrills me instead is having a clear, lucid state of mind. I have a few tricks to increase lucidity in the astral:

1) “Sit down” and meditate on your chest. This will focus the mind and stabilize the projection.
2) Focus on a spot in the back of your awareness (or the back of your head in the physical). Forget about the surroundings, they are not important. Tune out the surroundings (close your “eyes”).

What happens is the surroundings fall away, since anything you do not focus on disappears. You’ll end up in a purely aware state, which is the peak of human experience.
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matryoshka23
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Re: Lucid Dreams or OBE's (The Matryoshka Project)
Reply #4 - 02/15/07 at 19:38:59
 
Very interesting!  I will give these methods a try in multiple states of awareness!  I have done similar exercises while in the LD/OBE state and found that taking the time to stop and focus does indeed have the effect of prolonging the altered state of consciousness.

It seems to me that the "waking world", or the world in which I am currently typing this blog response, is of another species of dream state...or vice versa!  The environment is a projected creation of the subconscious in this world just as it is in any other.  

So why then all of the anxiety?  If you were dreaming that the environment was collapsing and nuclear proliferation and terrorism was expanding at an alarming rate would you continue to panic if suddenly you became completely lucid and realized that it was all just a dream?  

You and I have discussed the seemingly undeniable reality of the dream/OBE state in multiple posts.  We've even gone so far as to state that either the waking world is a species of dream or dreams are a species of the waking world!  

Now we are stating that it doesn't matter what we call it, dream or waking world.  What matters is the level of lucidity and familiarity with the environment or lack thereof.  I've experienced many "dream" worlds that were as familiar to me as the world that I am typing to you from currently.  The environments were just as stable and I was equally lucid as I am now if not more so!

Are we so lost in the dream of the "waking world" that we believe it to be more real than any other percieved dream environment?  Couldn't we concievably become more and more lucid to the point where we one day find ourselves skipping down the street gleefully singing "Row row row your boat" amidst the great abyss that our world seems to be falling into because we know deeply in our hearts that it is all but a dream?

Maybe the ultimate goal of sentient life IS to become more and more lucid or aware of the dream that is our every day life!  Not to run around in a panic trying to change the world but rather to let the world be and change ourselves!  To sit down, focus on the our chests, and let the world disappear!  When we open up our eyes again and rise up, we can go back into the world with a grin on our faces because we know, really know, that it is all an illusory perception of something beyond it that is projected forth into its form as a great sea of lights, sounds, tastes, smells, and tactile sensations!

Why save a baby drowning in a pool when you are "dreaming"?  Why save a baby drowning in a pool when you are "awake"?  There is no obligation for you to do so in either case.  The emotion that drives us to save the baby is evidence of our lack of lucidity!  We believe that the dream is real and that there is in fact a baby who is drowning!  

Well, I suggest that the reason why we jump into the pool to save the baby is the same reason why we don't jump in front of a train to kill ourselves or unload a shotgun at the post office!  It is because we are, on some level, still doubtful of the illusion and have not yet reached the clearest state of lucidity!  And as long as we are mesmerized by the phantasmagoria of the dream to the extent that we believe it to be real, we will still be moved by our emotions and impulses to act as though it were!  

Karma will still function at whatever state of lucidity in which we find ourselves.  Therefore, until we have allowed the dream/world to disolve once and for all, we are still influenced by the effects of our actions along every concievable point of the experiential spectrum.

Here is a little parable that I came up with yesterday afternoon while snowed into my apartment with no electricity:

We are anxiety-ridden children because the nursery that we are living in is on fire.  Some of us are pouring buckets of water onto the fire and others are pouring buckets of gasoline.  Frantically we, those who pour the water, run back and forth, one minute pouring water onto the flames and the next trying to stop those who are pouring gasoline onto them.  As we continue to do so, running back and forth over and over again, we begin to feel that it is just no use.  While we are trying to put out the flames with water, those pouring the gasoline are in the process of spreading them.  While we are trying to stop those who are pouring the gasoline, the flames begin to spread regardless because we are no longer pouring the water onto them.  

Amidst the chaos of the burning house and all of the running back and forth, one of the frantic children notices another group of children seated nearby.  Their legs are crossed, their backs are straight, their eyes are half closed, and grins stretch out across their faces from ear to ear.  The child in a state of panic asks them, "Why are you all just sitting here?  The house is on fire!" to which one of the calmly seated children responds, "We are doing everything that we can."  Another of the seated children asked the panic stricken child, "Why are you needlessly running back and forth trying to put out the flames but to no avail?"  The anxious child responded, "Because I want to save all of us!"  Another of the seated children then added, "This house has been burnt down to the ground many, many times before.  After it is completely destroyed, another house is built in its place.  Soon a spark is ignited and the whole process begins all over again!  Each time there are those who pour water onto the flames and those who pour gasoline onto them.  There are also those like yourself who needlessly run back and forth in a panic trying to stop the process.  And, of course, there is always us who sit here still and silently hoping that soon another will join us."

The frantic child asked, "But what will happen to me if I don't join you?"  Another of the seated children answered, "Then you will return to the next house pouring either water or gasoline onto the fire.  All of those who now pour water once poured gasoline and all of us seated here once poured water.  Whether or not you decide to join us the cycle will continue forever.  If you do join us then those who pour the water will lose one and gain another.  However, those who pour the gasoline will also lose one and gain another.  One of us will have the great blessing of departing from the house never to return again!  And this is the cycle that goes on and on and on.  Your decision to join us will rid you of useless anxiety and allow you to rest in the freedom and joy of silent stillness!"  The timid child responded, "I feel as though I wasted so much time!  So many years, so many lifetimes of running back and forth, around and around in circles without ever getting anywhere!"  "No time at all was wasted.  You have been through each of the stages necessary in order to arrive at this point.  The cycles will continue for those who do not choose to sit out.  And in each new cycle, we will gain yet another and in doing so set one of our own free of the cycles forever!", said one of the seated children.

"But those who pour the water are fools if the house is destined to burn down every time it catches fire!  Why are they wasting all of their time and energy trying to stop it?", asked the slowly calming child.  A seated child responded, "They are no more or less fools than those who pour the gasoline and don't see that they are burning down the very house that they are living in!"  The child then asked, "But who is it that rebuilds the house once it has burnt down to the ground?"  to which one of the seated children responded, "Ah!  That is where we come in!  The greatest fools of all!" and then gave a wink and a sly grin.

All panic fleed from the child as he sat down, crossed his legs, straightened his back, closed is eyes halfway, took a deep breath, grinned, and wondered to himself, "So then who is it that sparks the fire?"
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« Last Edit: 02/15/07 at 22:55:56 by matryoshka23 »  
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